Buick restoration--Greg, suggestions?

[TC Chris]

I've got the '38 Buick, as some may recall. AS a quite-old guy who works full time plus pulling in big SS benefit because I waited until 70 to start, plus mandatory IRA withdrawals, I find myself in the unfamiliar position of having discretionary spending available.

So I called a machinist who does engine rebuilds and asked about working on an old Buick. He spent 15 minutes explaining why it could be really expensive. He explained that if I had reamed the ridge in the cylinder bore when I replaced the rings, that meant it needed complete boring because the cylinders were funnel-shaped from wear. I kept trying to figure out if he didn't want to do it, or just wanted me to understand that this is one of those jobs where the troubles magnify when you open it up. "Those are babitted bearings," he said. I replied, "I know, I had one connecting rod rebabbited and pulled some shims on the main bearings" I told him I'd think it over, but what I really thought was I wanted him to let the idea percolate.

That's all a long-winded way of asking Greg or anybody else with Buick connections if there are any experienced Buick straight-8 rebuilders left, and any in the midwest in particular?

I also gave the guy the option of rebuilding the '65 Starfire engine. I gt less wind about that.

[electra225]

I had a guy in California named Lamar Wilkins. Had the best junkyard ever. High dry, lots of stuff, cheap. Lamar was THE Buick Straight 8 rebuilder. The best. Not worth two cents on a V-8. Always did a hydraulic lifter and insert bearing conversion.

Chris, be VERY careful. Getting a straight eight done right will be a challenge in Michigan. I still have some connections in the Buick club I can ask. Plan on spending ten grand. It cost eight grand to have a Chevy 327 rebuilt. There is a guy in Texas who has a good reputation with these engines, but I don't know him. Your '38 will still have babbitted rod bearings. There is a guy on YouTube who does videos on old engines, Jim's Automotive Service. I don't know him, but he does amazing work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_1xFoUI8wY

A suggestion I might offer is this. Don't rebuild the engine first. It will set unused during body and interior work. You want to coordinate work so the engine is done after the body work, just before they bolt the doghouse back on. You can certainly make arrangements to have the engine done while the body work is being done. Lots of little details and LOTS of money involved in this project. To do a car like that 25 years ago would cost at a minimum of 100 thousand dollars. With prices like they are now, and with the value of a '38 Buick Special at maybe 30 grand for the best one in existence, you can't be weak in the knees going into the project. Next to having a pregnant girlfriend, restoring a car from the '30's right now is the best way to "deleted" away your life savings I can think of. If money is no object and you are doing it because you have a fire in your belly to have it done, then go for it. It will be a fun and rewarding project. I'm not sure you realize what you are in for restoring that car in the current old car market. I just had a shop quote 4 thousand dollars to go thru the brakes on my '63.........

Have you considered making it into a street rod? More modern V-8, automatic, air, that kind of thing. Lots more resale value, more interest and later engines cost less to rebuild with more expertise available.

[TC Chris]

No interest in street rods, automatics, air. I've got enough automatics now. More interested in the "rat rod" notion--highly imperfect body, but solid mechanicals. Don't mine babbit bearings. This won't be racking up high speed highway miles. If I had it running, I could drive around while working incrementally on body repair. This is a MI car, which means rust. Even with the AZ fenders, it is not a candidate for perfection.

I'd rather have reliable engine, transmission, brakes.

Chris Campbell

[electra225]

I may have sounded a bit abrupt, Chris. I apologize for any misunderstanding.

The point I failed to communicate is that shops who could competently repair this old stuff is rapidly going away. The "practitioners" who are left have learned to work "time and materials", learned the upsell, and just plain how to gouge. I have a call in to a man I know in the Buick club who lives in the Flint, MI area. He is also in the "37-'38 Buick Club" and could help you find somebody to work on your engine. Insert bearing conversions may be less expensive and better for the engine that babbitt replacement and may also be easier to get done. Paying a time and materials invoice is a scary proposition. Parts of auto restoration really are more fairly done by time and materials charges. But the mechanical work can be priced out so the customer knows where his project is and how much he will be spending. The reason I TRIED to make my point as hard as I did is that I have seen too many folks get in way over their heads. It doesn't matter that you are a professional yourself, you aren't a professional in the auto restoration business and it's easy to get in deeper than you want to go. Finding someone competent to rebuilt a Buick Straight 8 nowadays is almost as hard as finding someone who rebuilds picture tubes.....

I have a friend from here in the Valley who recently passed away. He was active in the Buick club when I was Director. He has a '32 Buick Victoria, a cute little coupe with a rumble seat. 1932 Buicks had chrome vents on the sides of the hood like Cadillacs and "the big cars". I would LOVE to own that car, put a 401 and HydraMatic in it, 1962 rear end, then use a Mustang II front end with power steering. Leave the outside and interior dead stock. Or put it on Jaguar suspension. If I was younger......

Good luck with your project Chris. I'll try to help anyway I can.

[electra225]

When you remove the engine in a '38 Buick, you first remove the rear end.....

When you have the engine out, be sure to replace the torque ball seal and go thru the rear end. Change the oil in the trans and rear end, flushing all the gunge out with kerosene or diesel fuel. If you don't replace the torque ball seal, trans fluid will run down the torque tube into the rear end, overfilling it, causing oil to run out on the brakes. Torque ball seals were $200 20 years ago, probably higher now. I charged $500 labor to install it. The '38's were the first year for rear coil spring suspension, which makes the job easier. Rebush the track bar while you have the rear end out. I think '38 was the first year for knee-action shocks. Don't have yours rebuilt, they will still leak. Better to use tractor hydraulic fluid in them, check them yearly, refill as necessary. Dynaflow and knee action shocks were designed to leak......

Since you have these items at hand with the engine out, there should be little additional labor to replace them.

[electra225]

Hagerty might give you a suggestion on a local engine rebuilder. They are an insurance company, but they are big into the collector community as well.

[TC Chris]

Good info,thank you.

Chris Campbell

[electra225]

Another consideration on babbitt bearings is this. Modern oils are not always compatible with babbitt bearings. You have to remember that engine was designed to run on non-detergent oil. Buick straight 8's all had bypass oil filters, full flow came in 1953 with hydraulic lifters and the new V-8. Full shimless insert bearings arrived in 1948 320 cid jobs with hydraulic lifters and Dynaflow. All 1949 engines had the shimless insert bearings. I read somewhere that Duesenberg introduced precision, shimless insert rod and main bearings in the 1920's but don't quote me on that...

Another modern touch to consider is converting the electrical system to 12 volts. 1938 was the first year for the battery living under the hood, in a long, metal box with a cover. You can use two Optima six-volt batteries in that box and the show judges will never see it. Convert the generator to either 12 volts, convert the generator to a "genernator" which puts the guts of an alternator into the original generator case, or just use a Delco alternator. The downside to the 6-volt system is this. Hard to get good, original-sized 6 volt batteries. The lights are not very good on six volts. It's hard to start the engine when it's hot (and/or vapor locked). My dual voltage conversion uses 12 volts to the generator, lights and ignition and provides six volts to the radio, heater blowers and gauges. Leave the starter wound for six volts, spin it on 12 volts. Put an Ignitor in the distributor. 1938 Buicks did not use sealed beam headlamps. 12 volt headlamp bulbs are available from various sources.

1938 was the first year for coil rear suspension, battery under the hood, radio antenna under the left running board, Turbu-Lator pistons, and the Self Shifter. Yep, an automatic transmission, available as an option on Special series only. Not successful and so soured Buick on automatics, that the division passed on the HydraMatic when it was available in 1940. 1938 was also the last year for the shifter on the floor. 1939 got three-on-the-tree, a big deal when it came out......

The Buick Straight 8 was capable of a lot more power than it had in stock form. Grandpa thought the 1941 version of the big 320 cid "8" was THE best engine ever built. It was rated at 165 horsepower with Compound Carburetion, five more than the 346 Cadillac flathead V-8 of the same year. Grandpa had a souped-up 1941 320 under the hood of his '37 Century sedan. The car still exists, although it hasn't run in many years.

[TC Chris]

My Special has no filter at all, and a battery tray with a top frame clamp.

Is any modern oil compatible with babbit? I was running it with Sears nondetergent when it was parked.

Happy to hear that it's OK to spin the starter on 12 V. That's what I was doing when the 6V ran low, and was afraid I was going to cook it.

I still have the 6V Allstate battery I bought for it in 1966. Would two Optima 6V fit in the old long-case 6V?

When I had it running I used copper tubing, single flare, for brake lines. The aeronautical engineer who lived next door assured me it would be OK. That's probably living n the edge, in retrospect. New steel tubing, new rubber hoses, rebuild kits on the wheel cylinders (do they make kits any more?). Trying to remember if I put a J.C. Whitney master cylinder in that car, or was it just in the '60 Rambler American? Both are under the floor.

Chris Campbell

[electra225]

Oil filters were an option until the hydraulic lifter days, 1948 Roadmasters with Dynaflow, then all engines from 1949 to 1953. Solid lifters technically went out starting in 1949 with all models, although solids still appeared on standard transmission jobs until 1953. The 248 was dropped after 1950, bored out to 263. Again, technically, no 263 had solid lifters, although I rebuilt a 1953 263 that definitely had solids. Installed aftermarket? No telling, but the camshaft was no good, so it is possible. Hydraulic lifter Buick engines required detergent oil and an oil filter. If you neglected oil changes, the lifters would stick and cause valve burning. I would consult with whoever rebuilds the engine and get their recommendations on oil when used with babbitt bearings. Personally, I wouldn't consider spending what it will cost to rebuild that engine then use babbitt bearings. The connecting rods have to be changed and a chamfer has to be ground on the crankshaft journals to accomodate the insert bearings. If you need to replace the crank, you can use a Dynaflow crank with a clutch, but you can't reverse that. The Dynaflow crank has a "cheek" in the end to accomodate a knob on the Dynaflow torque converter.