Zenith 6S238: removing a bad paint job

[1922VV111]

Today I have acquired a 1938 model Zenith chairside radio that’s in kinda rough shape, although I know the chassis can be worked on, the case on the other hand was painted black for some reason that’s now lost to time… and I’m wondering what is good to remove that paint? I am also missing a dial too…

[1922VV111]

Now I may have solved my own issue. Just plain ol alcohol is making whatever paint this is come off! This may be easier than I thought.

[TC Chris]

Alcohol? Maybe the black stuff was shoe polish!

Chris Campbell

[electra225]

Whatever the black finish is was put on over the old lacquer. A 50-50 mix of lacquer thinner and acetone should take everything off down to bare wood, but should also save the stain. Any toner may be lost, however. That cabinet looks really good under the black stuff! Good luck!

[1922VV111]

Whatever the black finish is was put on over the old lacquer. A 50-50 mix of lacquer thinner and acetone should take everything off down to bare wood, but should also save the stain. Any toner may be lost, however. That cabinet looks really good under the black stuff! Good luck!

Thank you! I have no idea why somebody would put whatever they put on in the first place! Something I'll just never know!.

[electra225]

I bought two of my best radios at the same auction in 2007. One, a Sparton model 880, circa 1939 was painted titty pink, chassis, tube shields and all. The Philco 40-180 had been painted John Deere green, chassis, tube shields and all. Over dirt, dead bugs and the original finish. They both cleaned up and built out nice. Why would you paint a Philco John Deere green? Who knows, but maybe for the same reason someone painted your Zenith black. Many times the ugliest sets turn out to be the best performers.......

[1922VV111]

Did some more paint removal…the knobs don’t seems to fit in correctly they are VERY loose. And I noticed a gap between the escutcheon and dial. I’m guessing whoever had it before me didn’t secure the chassis properly? I took a photo of the bottom too.

[electra225]

There is usually a little springy doodad in the knobs that gets flattened out and won't grip the shaft. They can usually be "sprung back" so they grip the shaft better. If not, a hunk of 3X5 card between the spring and the shaft can help the knob to fit tighter.

The wood looks like it's in great shape. That ought to make a beautiful old radio when you get it cleaned and refinished. What finish are you thinking of using?

[1922VV111]

There is usually a little springy doodad in the knobs that gets flattened out and won't grip the shaft. They can usually be "sprung back" so they grip the shaft better. If not, a hunk of 3X5 card between the spring and the shaft can help the knob to fit tighter.

The wood looks like it's in great shape. That ought to make a beautiful old radio when you get it cleaned and refinished. What finish are you thinking of using?

Honestly, I don't know. I've never truly refinished something as in stripping old finish and putting in new before. I mostly just used goop and 0000 steel wool. All that sanding and stuff I have never done and not sure I even have proper tools for that. I'll probably be a more competent refinisher than electronic repairman that's for sure. But right now, I'm slightly less clueless about refinishing than electronic work.

[TC Chris]

One way to evaluate finishes is to wipe the areas where the old finish is missing with paint thinner. It will show you what it will look like with a film finish over it (varnish,lacquer, etc.).

I'm a fan of varnish, alkyd varnish usually and not polyurethane, because of ease of use and durability.

A while back I restored my childhood record player. In storage it had some moisture exposure and finish damage. My parents had bought it used for me to play kiddie records on in about 1952. That seller had apparently brushed on a coat of something, likely varnish, to dress it up for resale. I sanded lightly and brushed on another coat or two of varnish. You can see the results here in a short YouTube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb48WobryxQ&t=10s

Chris Campbell

[electra225]

Refinishing is not too hard if you don't overthink it. I wouldn't put lacquer on a broom handle, much less a radio cabinet. The lacquer has failed, that's why you have to refinish it. Every substance found in the average home is the natural enemy of lacquer. At the risk of incurring the wrath of the radio purists, polyurethane looks very nice if it's done right. Yeah, there is a risk of the "too plasticy" look, but if you do it right, it's amazingly pretty finish and it's impervious to everything except fire and being run over by a D9 dozer. I'm a big fan of "poly over shellac" finish. In fairness, poly, properly done, is certainly more work than lacquer. You shouldn't have to sand that cabinet much if any. I'd use 0000 steel wool, and a mix of 50-50 lacquer thinner and acetone and take it to bare wood, then stop and go back with grain filler and finish.

[1922VV111]

Refinishing is not too hard if you don't overthink it. I wouldn't put lacquer on a broom handle, much less a radio cabinet. The lacquer has failed, that's why you have to refinish it. Every substance found in the average home is the natural enemy of lacquer. At the risk of incurring the wrath of the radio purists, polyurethane looks very nice if it's done right. Yeah, there is a risk of the "too plasticy" look, but if you do it right, it's amazingly pretty finish and it's impervious to everything except fire and being run over by a D9 dozer. I'm a big fan of "poly over shellac" finish. In fairness, poly, properly done, is certainly more work than lacquer. You shouldn't have to sand that cabinet much if any. I'd use 0000 steel wool, and a mix of 50-50 lacquer thinner and acetone and take it to bare wood, then stop and go back with grain filler and finish.

Alright I appreciate the pointers. Thankfully I got a ACE hardware in my town so finding what I need won't be too hard! I think I have a handle on this better than I think! I also need to do the same to a Edison Standard Phonograph case too.

[electra225]

I have two Magnavox stereo cabinets Ron the Refinisher and I did in polyurethane. They each have 18 coats of poly, done in stages of three coats. We let the finish cure for a month between sessions, wet sanded with 400 grit then put on three more coats and repeated. It took a year and a half almost to do the Stereo Theater cabinet. We used shellac and satin poly on the inside and bottom. We used gloss on the outside. When we got the final coat sprayed and cured, we wet sanded with progressively finer paper, starting with 400 down to 2000 grit so we could dull the shine without killing the "knee deep" look of the grain. We were dealing with copious amounts of cigarette scum. We wanted to seal the inside against the smell of cigarettes. There are three coats of shellac and five coats of satin poly on the inside and the bottom, IIRC. You can't tell it isn't bare wood. You won't need to go to this amount of time or work with your Zenith cabinet, but the procedures would be very similar. You don't need 18 coats, either. Magnavox advertised "ten coats of hand-rubbed finish" and we tried to copy how it would look if Magnavox did it. Ron put very thin coats on, "mist coats" he called it. You would put on thin coats, and go until you get the look you want. If you put it on thick, not only can it run, but it takes forever to cure and "move" so you can work the finish. If you work the finish "green", before it has cured, it will look hazy.

[TC Chris]

Don't jump right in with Ace advice. Some of those guys will be pitching the latest miracle refinishing product, and some of those produce awful results.

My Edison cylinder phono was a gift from an elderly (younger than I am now) disabled eccentric who lived where the family home had stood, in a 1940s era travel trailer. My parents taught us to treat everybody with kindness, especially the impaired, so we were friendly toward Virgil. He appreciated that and responded with gifts. The best was the Edison player, which must have been rescued from the house fire along with the family goat. But it had been stored in a weather-exposed location so the finish was gone. I stripped what little remained, sanded a bit, then stained and finished it with shellac. Can't recall why I chose shellac, but I managed to get a stain color and finish that looks remarkably original.

You can see it in a YouTube video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-n4MC4u8aA&t=171s

The color rendition in the video is not good: lighter and oranger than it looks in person. In real life it looks like the real thing.

I'm less alarmed by lacquer than Greg is. It's what they used originally on must wood-cased consumer electronics until oiled walnut became the thing. It was relatively easy to apply in production, and they could used toned versions to add color. Manufacturers used walnut or mahogany veneers over flat surfaces, but the portions with shape were usually some inexpensive wood that they matched to the other areas, or made in contrasting dark colors using "toned" lacquers (colored). You can buy both clear and toned lacquers in rattle cans.

My Magnavox consoles all have toned-lacquer solids, and one has toned lacquer all over. On the cherry one, the top was in bad shape so I over-sprayed it with rattle-can clear lacquer.

My '36 GE, another basket-case device, got stain & varnish. See it here, but again, the color rendition is not accurate--it's darker IRL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uVYOidosoA

So there you have three ways to do it--shellac, lacquer, varnish.

Chris Campbell

[1922VV111]

Got more paint off the face of the radio this morning…

[electra225]

When urethane paint finishes became popular, the Model T and model A Ford guys resisted vehemently. They wanted to use nitrocellulose lacquer, which is what Ford used originally. Lacquer shrinks and cracks. It is also easily damaged by almost any compound known to man. Bird droppings, "acid rain" which used to be common in cities when they burned a lot of coal would damage lacquer finishes. Urethane is a lot tougher. The polyurethane we use on cabinets is a cousin of the urethanes used in auto finishes and provide similar benefits. You remember the days when you had to "Simonize" your car every six months? That was because GM used acrylic lacquer finish on their cars. It was pretty, can't argue with that. But it was also delicate. You had to keep it waxed so deposits wouldn't harm the finish as easily. Sorry, Chris, but we will have to agree to disagree about lacquer.

I had a client who wanted his Buick restored, but he also insisted on painting it with lacquer. I made him sign a paper that stated I wouldn't be responsible for the finish once it left my shop. I didn't care if it fell off, was damaged, no accountability whatsoever. It never fell off, but he was never happy with it. It took an insane amount of care, and never did look as nice as a urethane, base coat/clear coat paint job.....

[TC Chris]

The best car paint finish I had in the old days was the factory acrylic lacquer on the '61 Chevy. It was smooth, shiny, and durable. The hood and trunk lid and one of the doors (maybe 2) have the original finish from 64 years ago. I have not waxed them because I keep intending to do some rattle-can finish repairs on other body parts, and don't want some parts shiny and others not. But the hood, trunk, and doors look good even in a state of neglect.

Now, let's admit that the '05 Ranger with its clearcoat finish is a winner too. I'm one of the people I hated as a kid: I don't wash vehicles often any more. But that old Ranger that has lived outdoors its whole life looks pretty good after a rainstorm. The only place the clearcoat has failed is on two C 3/4" wide strips lying between the top panel and the C pillar (B pillar, since it's the second one back?). Both strips lost their clearcoat.

Indoors, there are no birds pooping or acid rain falling on furniture, including radios, so I'm not worried about a finish that stand up to them. The great virtue of a lacquer finish is the authentic look to it, and then there's the ready availability of the toned lacquers for making the cheap wood parts look like whatever the veneers are, or darker, as was often done. Using varnish, I've managed to achieve a similar look and color by combos of "stain varnish," the stuff with color added, and regular wood stains.

Long ago, I refinished my Victor RE 45 (http://www.victor-victrola.com/RE-45.htm) with a "varnish" from a hardware store. It was a brand name (escapes me now) that hinted at urethane but didn't quite admit it. It was all I could find back then so I used it. The finish turned out pretty well but it ain't gonna fool the experts. The knowing eye will say "polyurethane." It's like on my Mustang. Half of it was repainted after the drunk hit me. A guy in an engine shop insisted that he was an expert and the car had not been repainted. I was in it when it was hit, so I was pretty sure.... and I knew where to find a tiny overspray that I showed him. I had the knowing eye.

Chris Campbell

[electra225]

I have a friend who has an old Philco radio that he did a tung oil finish on. Looks fantastic. I think there are guys who could use "mayonnaise and a brick" as Art used to say, and come out with a nice finish.