Maiden voyage

[William]

It looks more like motor oil than antifreeze/coolant. That by far is the worst coolant system I have ever seen. No wonder it runs hot.

Bill

[walyfd]

Yeah... my thoughts exactly. But, looking in the radiator now, I see copper/brass and not black on the fins.

I'm a fan of this Thermacure so far. Still leaning toward a weak water pump as the main cause but we shall see soon. I'm interested in what the vinegar might flush out, too.

[electra225]

Sorry to see this, Walter. The radiator is full of that black mud. I am so afraid that magic sauce in a can will not stop the cancer in that engine. Good luck.

[walyfd]

So what's your diagnosis? I'm looking at an overhaul, aren't I...

Or drive the "deleted" out of it until it explodes. I'm sure the guy I got it from knew this. Way too much weirdness with the cap and thermostat. But this is what happens with cars that sit, like people.

If I'm looking at a rebuild, I think this car is worth it. "deleted" thing just runs so well... and the heat is killer!!!!

[electra225]

Like Bill, in the 60+ years I have been working on things, I have NEVER seen, nor could I imagine, anything like you posted concerning a cooling system. Those metal shavings you show have metal out of the engine in them. The ultra-corrosive, "terminal cancer" black mud is formed from rust in the engine, combined with broken-down antifreeze that has been super-heated, REPEATEDLY. I have read where it takes 400 degrees, sustained, to create that black mud. Ethylene Glycol will break down earlier than that. The water pump is designed to circulate coolant the consistancy of water, not to pump sludge like that. And it is very possible that the engine has been running far hotter than you realize, due to the fact that coolant sensors and gauges do not accurately measure the temperature of that sludge.

That said, would you prefer that I share comments that may be hard to hear with the forum, or would you feel more comfortable if I sent you a private message or an email with my comments?

[walyfd]

May as well share it with everyone. Better to get bad news in a group.

[electra225]

I deleted what I wrote before because it sounded snarky. I apologize for that.

You need to get the black mud out of the cooling system. It is ultra corrosive. I personally feel the rebuilding the engine is possibly the ultimate fix. I have a contraption that shoots water and air that is pretty good at cleaning cooling system passages. That won't help the radiator or anything else in the cooling system. The only way to get that stuff out is to vat the block and other engine components, then replace all the other components that handle coolant, especially the radiator. To have that much black mud, my opinion is that the engine has been run for an extended period overheated. The black mud is made up of rust and broken down antifreeze that has been really hot, really often. The head gaskets have been replaced, possibly due to failure or perhaps the heads warped. I don't see a simple fix for this. I'd be more concerned about where all the metal you showed came from. It had to come out of the engine castings. A machine shop can advise you more accurately after they get the engine apart and cleaned up a bit. The old cast iron V-8's were pretty tough. My guess is that it won't run well for long. The trans is leaking, so while you have the engine out........

I'm sorry you are experiencing this, Walter. Unfortunately, I've seen this kind of thing far too often. Good luck.

[walyfd]

I'm glad I got to read your original response. It was honest and truthful and I was not offended at all. We're here to exchange knowledge and that's what you did.

I'm going to have to step back from this titanic for the time being. Need to concentrate on house projects. I'll see what comes out of it today as that was just the thermocure.

Going to go up to my mechanic, too. Not sure he'd want to get saddled helping with an old car but may know someone. Think I need to confirm the state of this block with some tests. It may not be worth the cost to redo it.

Been a "deleted" of a year for bad news...

[William]

There is nothing like bad news when it comes to car repair. I have a friend that recently purchased a vehicle and is discovering more things wrong than he had anticipated. It is very sad for both of you and I'm sorry you and he are experiencing all this bad news. Hang in there, and just take it one step at a time.

Bill

[TC Chris]

Think I need to confirm the state of this block with some tests. It may not be worth the cost to redo it.

What's the cost of a good block? Or maybe a good used engine? Look like you have a car with a solid body. That's a huge advantage.

Chris Campbell

[Firedome]

Really sorry to hear about issues with that beautiful car Walter. She deserves only the best.
I personally wouldn't go with a used engine on a car that old, just asking for more trouble.
A proper rebuild isn't cheap but we do these things for love of the car not expecting a 100% return, at least I do.
If only it were so that we could recoup these "investments"!

I had almost the same experience with my '69 Cutlass 350 a couple of years ago. I bought the car out of W Oklahoma sight unseen except by a fellow Olds club'er who owns a '70 W-30 4-4-2 and kindly volunteerd to put his knowledgable eyeballs on it for me. I bought it because of the dry climate super-solid body knowing that the old lady seller had been storing it in her carport since 2003 and it had sat that long. The 4 dr hardtop is the rarest model on all of the late '60s A body GMs and my favorite, you'll never see another one at a show. So I had Passport Transport bring her East. The engine was free and I did get it running after the usual dead-car procedures, but it had a pronounced lifter-valve tap. Disassembly revealed oil wasn't getting to that part of one head, and heaven only knew when she'd done the last oil change. But I knew at that point w/ 105k miles on it it was ready for a total rebuild anyway.

So I spent 6 months collecting all US-made original GM NOS parts and NORS US stuff (like Sealed Power rings etc etc.). The conundrum was who would I trust to do the machine and rebuild work. I asked all the vintage and old car guys I knew, starting with my uncle who was a 50 year member of Iroquois region of AACA and president of the Model A club. The consensus was 1) a guy built race motors for local drag racers, but he'd just died, and 2) a guy who owns a transmission shop and loves '50s/60s cars and is the go-to guy for vintage car engine rebuilds in the S Tier of NY. I went to his shop to discuss the possibility of him doing the work. When I arrived the cars that he had in his shop for engine work: '67 Mustang convert, '69 GTO, and '57 Imperial LeBaron 392 hemi, '65 Belvedere 440 coupe. When I saw those I suspected that I was at the right place! After considerable discussion I was impressed that he really knew his stuff (I've sold over 200 vintage cars as a "curbside" dealer over the last 40 years so I can kinda tell who's a BS'er and who's for real). He made several comments and suggestions that I knew were spot on. I committed to him for the work after also talking to the machine shop he uses for block and head rebuilding in Windsor NY, about 10 mi East, a guy in his 70s who'd been doing machine work on vintage and racing engines for 5 decades. He also really impressed me with his knowledge and experience. So I put down a deposit with Steve and had my car roll-backed to him, waiting in line for the several other engines was doing. The rebuild was to be to 100% stock using my laboriously collected US NOS parts only - there was to be no Chinesium in my car!!

Bottom line, after about 3 months he called and said it was done. He then drove it the 15 miles to my house as part of his shakedown/ring -seating procedure lol. Once warmed up you gotta hammer it a bit to seat those rings! A new aluminum radiator was installed as part of the re-assembly/installation but I saved the Harrison radiator, in case I or someone wants 100% originality. The job he did was exactly what I wanted, and 2 years later I'm still super pleased with it in every respect. It runs really strong; she goes the way an Olds Rocket 350 oughta! And now after a fabulous new paint job last Fall she looks likes she should too!

Walter - the good news is Steve's in Kirkwood, 3 miles from the PA/NY border, maybe 1 hour at most from you. If you're unable to find just the right builder for your job right there, I can highly recommend Steve, and will provide the info if needed!

[walyfd]

Thanks. I may take you up on that. I don't think there's anyone I'd trust around here.

Feel like I gut kicked in the gut today.

[Firedome]

Understand that, some of us have been there too. When I get back home from VT next Tuesday the 20th I'll send you the info. Meantime, know that even if it will take an unexpected expenditure of time and resources, it's a great car and in the end well worth the effort, since once done right you'll be able to go anywhere with confidence, and that's a very good feeling indeed.