'58 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special with 40K miles

[electra225]

I don't remember seeing one of these. This is a BIG car. I saw this video and thought perhaps our resident Cadillac man, and the forum, might enjoy seeing it. Patience thru the early blab will yield results later in the video....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKFZMQAYZ_s

[walyfd]

Gorgeous example with the best color combos. That seat cloth was originally used on the 57 Eldorado Brougham.

The last 60S on the 133 in wheelbase until 1965. 58 had like a dozen different chassis and there were only 12k Fleetwoods, half the 57 amount yet the 58 survival rate is like 5 times the 57. Hardly ever see a 57 60S.

Couple things: car is a stripper. No air, eye, trunk, locks or even the radio foot switch or door guards (which I think ruin the lines of a black car). Something hanging under the dash on the driver's side. No reason to add that 57 front speaker or swap out the original generator. And the valve covers... I stopped when I heard about adding electric wipers. These are all CLC judging deductions, except lack of options.

I'd have the gold trim reanodized or take it off and polish it. I remember some of mine had like a white coating that washed out the gold.

Absolutely incredible example and, yep, probably worth twice or 3x my 62... that paint is unbelievable.

[electra225]

I thought the lack of options was a little odd, given the livery of the car. And, putting add-ons or "go fast" geegaws on an old car, particularly a Cadillac, changing how it was made is morally reprehensible. If you want that stuff, buy a car that has it, but don't mess with an old car. Did that car ride on 14" tires?

[walyfd]

A cadillac on 14" tires? No... 8:20 x 15.

The Eldorado Brougham actually had a low-profile 8:20 x 15 with thin whitewall.

[electra225]

So, Cadillac and Buick kept their 15" tires, while the other GM divisions rode on 14's in those days? Wasn't the S60 in the lineup right under the Brougham? Wasn't Brougham the Cadillac that had no options? All the goodies were standard?

[walyfd]

Correct. The brougham was $13,074 which was about 3k more than a Rolls.

[electra225]

I wanted a Brougham until I got involved with that one Art restored. That pretty much quenched my thirst for a Brougham. Beautiful cars, no question. The fit and finish was so un-GM, they might have been actually WORTH more than a Rolls in those days. They were very well assembled cars, fit and finish was nearly flawless. They had the prettiest most plush carpet I ever saw in a car, even a Rolls. The only other American car that came close in build quality was perhaps the early Lincoln Continental, '56-'57 or the '57 Buick Roadmaster 75 or the '58 Buick Limited. The Cadillac Brougham would have made Packard assembly seem like freight wagons. I don't think Broughams bring the money they did 25 years ago when we did that one. What can a Brougham be had for nowadays?

[walyfd]

Prices are down on them I think. 200 to 250k would get a strong #2 or 3 car.

Like everything else, the people whe remember them are all gone or too old to enjoy having one. I wanted one, too but I had a 57...

Friend of mine who works for GM has an original one. Paint flaking off, interior a little shabby but EVERYTHING works and he drives it everywhere. He has a side business dealing in parts for them. If I were to have one, I'd want all the toys to work rather than shiny paint.

[electra225]

Having all the accessories working is the challenge. I was guessing in the $75K to $100K range....

I know a guy who paid $125K for a '53 Skylark and thought he was killing a fat hog. He'd be lucky now to get half that for it.

At $200K, I reckon I'll have to wait a bit before I get one.

[TC Chris]

Couple things: car is a stripper. No air, eye, trunk, locks or even the radio foot switch or door guards (which I think ruin the lines of a black car). Something hanging under the dash on the driver's side. No reason to add that 57 front speaker or swap out the original generator. And the valve covers... I stopped when I heard about adding electric wipers. These are all CLC judging deductions, except lack of options.

In the owner's defense.... I heard him say that the valve covers were because he removed a PVC system. Maybe Cadillac had PVC before other GMs did, but I doubt it. Detroit in general were dragged kicking and screaming into PVC. So I'm guessing he was removing an aftermarket PVC modification, and he settled on a cool set of valve covers, even if not quite kosher. I assume he added a road draft tube somewhere.

The front speaker (two of them in the box, as I understood) looks portable/removable, and as a guy who likes music, I understand completely.

The generator? Why not. It's completely reversible (valve covers too). Especially in a car that isn't driven frequently or far, a bit of extra oomph in the battery-charge department is a good thing.

As to lack of options, lots of people bought good cars that way. My '65 Starfire was bought without air, electric windows, light dimmers, or turning lights. It drove perfectly well without them, and at 58 years old, you can still pt the windows down (turn the crank). OK, think how cool it would be if it had come with the optional 4-speed, but the switch-pitch Turbo-Hydramatic is competent.

I don't see any real desecration here, no permanent abuse of a cool car.

Chris Campbell

[walyfd]

Actually first vehicles with pvc were cadillac built tanks...

Pvc was required on CA cars in 1962 and it was a $5 or so option. The tube was removed and the valve was mounted in the plate under the carb and the fumes ported back to the top engine cover, not a valve cover. It was retro fitted this way with a kit from the dealer for at least 1956 and up through 63. In 64, the new engine had it standard. PITA was you had to remove the intake manifold to install it.

Now... I'm a fan of script valve covers but they were last used in 56. If you're going through the trouble, use the correct parts. And the valve train changed between 56 and 58... I think the 58 cover is taller than the 56.

The speaker is the standard front speaker from a 57. There was no room in the 57 dash for a speaker so they put it on the floor. The 58 speaker is above the glove box.

Changes are fine so long as they are documented and people understand it's not how the car was delivered. I've seen arguments on the judging field where the one guy with a blue fan insists his is the only correct car out of 40 others with black fans!!! Color factory photos mean nothing to him.

Again, I'm looking at this as a clc judge.

And options will always command a premium. I'd never own another old car without air.

[electra225]

I did a factory air retrofit on a '55 Roadmaster. A total horror show. The evaporator is in the trunk. Early Rivieras were impossible to add factory air to a non-air car. We found it easier to get a good solid body that had factory air and swap bodies. '63 Buicks air conditioning ran a flooded evaporator type system. They would ice up if you were on the road, since the compressor ran continuously. I would eliminate the POA valve, then put a Ford-style temp switch on the evaporator to cycle the compressor clutch. Much better setup. Accessories, particularly Guide Matic, were conversation starters at car shows. Nobody knows what it is. I believe a majority of the Olds Super 88's ever built had Guidematic and power windows. Those worked well on a Buick Century. Cadillac furnished power wing vents and Guidematic and Twilight Sentinel for Buick Electra. I saw a Cadillac one time that had crank windows and thought that rather odd. Cadillac six-way seats would work in an Electra sedan. The rarest accessory on a Buick Electra is dual exhaust. Very few Electras were built with dual exhaust, very few left my shop without dual exhaust.....

[walyfd]

There was a factory kit for dealer installation of air. I've never seen one. It had to come in a shipping crate. It had to be a 2-day job. No way would I try to do it with the passenger fender installed. I do know dealers would add air to used cars so they'd sell. By 1961, 51% of cadillacs were ordered with air.

The air in my buddy's 62 is so cold the chrome vents frost over. Mine is running 134 which I want converted back and it's cold but not r12 cold. The lines under the hood ice over and I mean ice.

[William]

Walter, my 1973 Buick Riveria GS was like that. It had auto A/C, and if you set the temp at the lowest setting you would freeze. For me to be comfortable, I would have it set at 75 on a day it was 90 plus out.

Bill

[TC Chris]

would eliminate the POA valve, then put a Ford-style temp switch on the evaporator to cycle the compressor clutch.

When I got my current sweet Ranger, the first vehicle I've ever owned with air that worked, I was perplexed in the fall. Abruptly, the compressor would cut out on the defrost setting at 45 degrees outside, and the windshield would fog up and then dry VERRRY slowly. I went to the dealer and told them the windshield was not defogging at 45 degrees, and maybe there was a problem with the compressor? The guy said, "Yeah, the compressor turns off below 45 degrees." I realized it was like the dehumidifier that ices up in cool room temps.

Chris Campbell